Tuesday
Apr032007
DB 33: Aquaman
Tuesday, April 3, 2007 Respected king of the sea or Cartoon Network comedy act? From founding member of the Justice League to Aquaman dance party, the Dollar Bin takes a look at the comic book and pop culture icon Aquaman.
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Reader Comments (25)
Crap! Almost missed this. For some reason, "Acme Comics Dollar Bin" got changed to just "Dollar Bin" on iTunes, so it's not at the top of my iPod anymore. Who can I blame for this travesty?!? A week without the Acme Comics Dollar Bin? Heaven forbid!
Hey guys! This has nothing to do with Aquaman, however - This Saturday April 7th will be FLUKE, the Southeast's Greatest Mini-Comic and Zine show in Athens, GA. check out the link here
www.wideawakepress.com
www.flukeathens.com
should be cool
later
My fault Jim. It wasn't supposed to happen today but when I was beginning my move of the blog and podcast to the new domain (http://www.thedollarbin.net) I inadvertently made an very minor error that forced me down this path today. Nonetheless, I just went ahead and changed everything. The move is not complete but for the most part everything is on the new domain.
Acme Comics and Records (the store) will be getting its own Web site real soon.
Cool! Thanks for the update.
And this was one of your best episodes - hilarious!
I'm disappointed about what Trey had to say about the current Aquaman - I had high hopes for Tad William's run. I was a bit disappointed in his mini The Next, but I loved his Otherland novels - he's an amazing writer. Well, since I special-ordered them I'll just have to see for myself. Maybe I'll disagree. I did agree about that 90's run - I've got like the first 50 issues of the run where he lost his hand. Did you see when he was in Superboy? Great stuff - riding a tsunami down on Superboy!
I think Aquaman deserves a good writer - I think he could work in his own book if written right...you could work different angles. I think the whole King of the Ocean could be cool. I still have a little hope for this current arc.
And I agree with Brian that him being such a lame superhero is due to his time on Superfriends. Sure - everyone was lame on that show, but Aquaman still stood out as the lamest.
Okay guys, here's another long one so go ahead and skip down if you don't want to hear it. Aquaman has always been in my top 4 of favorite characters and I honestly can't tell you why. I think it has something to do with what Flaco said about the character having this huge potential that has never been realized as well as him being the underdog of sorts because he isn't the all-powerful Superman, the all-deducing Batman, or even the all-idiotic Plastic Man. He's just what he is "White Fish." Anyway, my collection of Aquaman stuff is huge and I just wanted to let you know that unfortunately, a lot of the stuff that you mentioned has been tried.
The Arthurian legend, sword and sorcery stuff has been at the heart of this current run from it's beginning even though it did kind of change directions when Pfiefer took over. Then Busiek came in and totally overhauled the book but took it back to the sword & sorcery thing. I have read a lot of the ideas that he had for where the book was going and I think if he were sticking around we could finally have the Aquaman that everyone is looking for but other responsiblities are taking him away. The magic angle was also a big part of the 4 issue story during crisis where he wore the blue suit as well as the Aquaman special that followed it. They were kind of trying to link the whole Arion age of Atlantis with the current (at the time) Aquaman stuff.
The National Geographic angle was actually a big part of the Peter David run. He would throw stuff into almost every issue and on the letters page, some marine biologist would come in and talk about what you saw in the book or create some dialogue about the world around Aquaman. It was a much more minor part of the book than what you were saying, but it was there.
The eco-terrorist thing has been done over and again in a kind of sub-plot thing except for the 13 issue McLuaghlin (sp?) run where that was pretty much his thing for most of the run.
He's also been portrayed as the family man trying to rule over Atlantis only to get booted for one reason or another (at this point in time it is because he has blond hair, go figure). They decided to have Black Manta kill his son and Mera go crazy and return to her own dimension which made him into the loner again. They gave him a dark twin from another dimension (Thanatos) and even tried to give him ties to the eskimos in Peter David's run. He had another son with an eskimo girl who actually tried successfully to steel Aquaman's throne for a while but it didn't last and now, as a result of Infinite Crisis, that kid is dead too (for now). And the thing between he and Wonder Woman actually has its roots in the first annual from Peter David's run when they first met as teens. Aquaman and his "finny friends" save Diana from Triton (yet again Under the Sea begins playing in my head). He returns her to the shore and she, standng there in her thong and string bikini top since that is what all Amazon princesses wear, says he can't come on the island. His response? "You don't know how bad I want to kiss you right now." Classic stuff right?
To get to the point, it has been horrible how disrespected this character has been. I think he could be great. His telepathy has been updated so that it doesn't just work on fishes now even though it is not as strong as Martian Manhunter's or whoever. He is incredibly powerful out of the water and in. He no longer has the out of water for an hour weakness that he used to have though he does need to be close to it. He is a direct descendant of the kings of Atlantis past. He's smart, he has attitude, and he has proven himself to be a strong leader. Of course now, Busiek made him into some wizard guy with squid tentacle for a beard and apparently Tad Williams has killed him to allow more room for this new kid that seems to have assumed his name and powers.
One of his best moments in my opinion was at the end of the whole death and return of Superman story where the heroes are deciding what to do with the wreckage of Engine City. They come up with this idea of just dumping it all in the ocean. Aquaman shows up and stares them all down and says oh no you don't. He just pops out of the water and the look on his face says that he will stand toe to toe with any and all of them before he lets them dump all this crap in the ocean. And the cool thing, is they back down and he wins. It's like the hero community knows what a force he is to reckon with and doesn't want to get in his face. Even Superman steps back.
He really is a great character with a lot of potential I think he just doesn't get any of the respect that he deserves from creators. I don't know why and I really don't know that he ever will because he has become such a great foil for so many jokes. The adult swim stuff and even those classic SNL skits (in one, he shows up to a funeral eating shrimp cocktail and they almost don't let him in because nobody recognizes him) just make him into a joke over and over again and maybe that is where he works best at this point because it certainly isn't in any of the ideas that have been set forth for the last 50 years. Probably the best Aquaman story I have ever read is the Atlantis Chronicles by Peter David and he is only in the last issue as a little baby so go figure.
One last thing and then I'll shut up for now. The ice character in Starman was Icemaiden and she wasn't killed, she was sent on a goose chase so that Mist could assume her identity and take out that Justice League France or whatever it was. The Ice that just showed back up is Tora Olafsdotter from the JLI stuff who died saving the world from some big bad named Overmaster in a stoyline called Judgement Day which crossed over between Jutice League America, Justice League International, and Justice League Task Force several years ago. They are two different charaters believe it or not and please don't ask me why I know that. Let's just assume that for a long time in the '90s I didn't have much of a life and leave it at that.
Once again, I really enjoyed the podcast and look forward to next week's show on Black Vulcan. Maybe you could do one on Lagoon Boy or D-man some time.
You guys are being way too hard on writers and artists for not being Grant Morrison or Paul Dini. You have to understand that the writers and artists that work for the big two are professionals that have put their time in over and over and busted their ass to get where they are. They aren't just jackasses that walked in off the street. I'm also saying that there is more to writing and drawing comics than just writing and drawing comics. There are a crap load of things to consider that readers are not privy to when it comes to producing comics but often the blame falls squarely on the shoulders of the writer or artist if the book isn't accepted by fans. Sometimes that's fair. Sometimes it's not. So just respect that. That's all. So if you think something's terrible, call it terrible if you want, but understand that it probably isn't, and if it is, it could be a number of reasons that are outside of the writers or artists control that you aren't privy to.
I'm trying to do the writing thing. So my perspective is changing drastically on what makes comics good or bad. So it's a little disorienting for me to resolve the two schools. Everybody thinks they can write comics. Just like everybody thinks they can write TV or movies and they couldn't be more wrong. There's a big difference between having ideas and making comics out of them. Huge. So people talk shit sometimes like they could do better. And maybe they could. But they don't. And having never tried or studied, they aren't familiar with some of the problems that result from trying to execute an idea. So it's irritating when someone slams someone else's work for not fitting with their preconceived notions of what it should be.
There's a larger issue at work here as well and that's the idea that writers and artists aren't quality unless they're working for the big two and are famous names with impeccable track records. And that's a shame because it ain't true. There are a lot of writers and artists who choose to not work for the big two because they suck for a million reasons too extensive to get into here. For example, you might not even read Detective after Dini leaves because the next writer won't be Dini. Is that fair? When money's involved? Maybe. It's a tough thing. I guess what bugs me is reading comics assuming they're gonna suck because the writer isn't Paul Dini. It's this mentality that keeps the comics industry stratified and keeps new talent from getting work. Flaco's answer would be that they just need to write better. Well it's not that easy. How many stories by big names have you read that suck? A lot. Just writing well isn't enough.
Awesome post Bryan.
I will say that Aquaman is awesome and Flaco and I have said so for years. I think that what makes him so hard to write is the same thing that makes cosmic stories so hard to write. The problem is that his world, the ocean, is too alien. There's nothing for us to relate to in any realistic way so it's a hard sell when writers create characters and civilizations for him to interact with. We automatically know that those characters and civilizations are just made up in an attempt to give Aquaman something to interact with. Just like alien races and civilizations in cosmic stories. They're just too alien for us to get into. They make great villains and supporting characters but main character successes are rare. Your suggestions for story ideas are examples of how we try to make Aquaman someone we can relate to. Eco terrorism is a real world land problem. The only reason we give a shit about fucking up the ocean is because it affects us on land by doing so. Also Adam suggested pretty pictures of animals and ocean landscapes. That's fine but there's nothing for aquaman to interact with and it works for him because it reflects his reality that there are no civilizations in the ocean. Thus he can relate to it. Sword and scorcery, Atlantis, animal themed villains, those are all contrivances and we don't buy them.
*Jody approved the editing of this comment.
I guess looking back, one of the things about an Auquaman book being silent and him exploring and lots a pretty fishes is that it could be done with anyone. It wouldn't utilize all that is Auquaman and what a waste that would be and I'd probably complain about that. I still think the eco activist thing might be good, but it would have to be told from a man who is king of the see point of view. I like the Auquaman telling Superman to not stop the Hurricane thing. Also, I have just started reading Justice and Auquaman is awesome in that. Yeah its not "his" book, but he's damn sure in it and its good, so it can damn well be done.
Jody, the more you post, the more I find you to be my kind of guy. No shit, man. I like the way you think, and I like what you're saying and I like your balls out no bullshit attitude. No lie.
Those who can write, do. Those who can't criticize. I'm one of the latter.
Don't take my last post as a calling out, dude. You aren't the kind of guy to let a comment go without questioning the commenter to check for B.S. and neither am I. The question ain't an attack. It's a chance to enhance the show and maybe learn a bit, too. Word.
Besides, this kind of thing is good for the board. This is the best comment thread I've read yet.
Don't stop posting and dont stop this conversation! Hell, shoot me an e-mail if you don't wanna keep on in public. yenbadert@hotmail.com
I haven't heard all you have to say yet. This is my kind of stuff.
Hey, Kris' wife here. Just reading thru the comments here. WOW, you guys have a lot to say. I am impressed. I don't read comics, never have but I do love the show. My husband doesn't even speak that much on the show, so its not like I am listening for that reason. I enjoy hearing the different opinions of everyone, I enjoy the conflicting opinions. I love the times you humerously poke fun at a comic, a writer or each other. I laugh out loud a lot and that is saying a lot b/c typically i am inside chuckler.
Jody, I have read your comments. You sound very smart and like you could add a lot to the show. You have some very good, educated show topic ideas, points to touch on, etc. I think your opinions are very valuable. These guys are very lucky to have a listener who is that interested in their show and who takes it so seriously.
Okay, not much else to say here except this...
Y'all PLEASE try to not talk over each other. Try not to interrupt each other. It is SO frustrating for the listener (esp. one who is typically very unfamiliar with the topics at hand) to try and decipher who is saying what. It is aggravating when someone gets the mic, I am interested in their thoughts and then is interrupted (loudly) by someone more interested in hearing his own voice.
Anyway, other than this, I love the show. I think you guys are all very smart and I must say you all have an excellent vocabulary. I love listening. Brian you are my favorite, gotta tell ya.
Peace out.
You hear her Brian. Stop talking over people!
Anyway after listening to this show again the one thing I really liked about it is how you can notice ideas flowing from it. I know I, in particular, (because that is who I really listen to) would make a comment and a few minutes later after listening to what everyone else had to say would completely change my mind. Like the silent book thing. I still think it would be cool, but it would definitely be a waste and and I think it should at least have a thought narration.
And another thing I noticed was no one brought up the idea of like a JLA book, but Aquaman being the center of the story. That way its not a solo title, but he is still the main character. And I've decided I like stories outside of continuity. Just like a book based on the idea of the character but not having to deal with all the continuity. Kinda like the new Shazam run.
I don't think the comments got off topic. If a listener has a concern about the show I want to hear about it. Currently, our comments sections are the only way to do so. Maybe if I designed a contact form for people to us that would be more appropriate. But honestly, I like all these discussions taking place in the comments. You never know when someone will have a good counter to someone elses ideas or concerns.
Stacey, thanks for commenting. It's kinda of weird to get an email notice that your wife sitting five feet away on her computer has just left a comment. I agree that a lot of "over talking" was going on. Maybe Adam should silence our individual tracks if we are not adding content to the discussion. YOU HEAR THAT ADAM. Ah, what the hell am I saying? I couldn't edit if I tried. I will say our next show is much better in that regard.
I grew up swimming on a swim team and I remember being a kid (after watching the Superfriends) and pretending that I was Aquaman and could swim faster than everyone (not that this helped me win any races).
Does this add anything to the discussion?
: )
It does seem that they really could do something with the character for the subculture of swimmers, ocean lovers and surfers. The ocean is so mysterious and cool. Just don't have him riding a freaking sea horse.
Will,
I think that is what I liked about the Aquaman pilot (which you can watch for free on AOL's IN2TV I think). He was this bar/surf shop co-owner with ties to Atlantis that he didn't even know about yet. He has a heart for ocean conservation and is willing to stand up for what he believes in but he isn't a crackpot. At heart he's just a beach guy that loves the ocean. His mother went missing while he was a kid and he has been raised by his adopted father who is a Coast Gaurd officer. The whole thing is set on the coast of Florida's Keys(I think) and they are close to the Bermuda triangle. So, in one show, you've got military elements, conspiracy stuff, the Bermuda triangle, as well as the whole surfer/swimmer crowd all tied together with AC at the center of it. I think it could have been a good show and may be something for the writers to consider looking at for the book.
Bryan,
I agree.
Oh and Jody I also agree that someone should try to take on Aquaman as a under sea person and try not to think as a land being when doing so.
The latter would be a lot harder, but they could both be good.
Thats why I like stuff out of continuity. They can both work.
Hell, would it just be easier to make up a underwater character and call him Underseaman and write something with its own continuity or rewrite Aquaman? But then that wouldn't "save" Aquaman. Would it? Discuss.
There is a part at the end of the show where we discuss other on sea dudes, but I cut it out because it was toward the end and we were rambling. I won't be able to record next week so I'm going to have to through a "Store Customers," "Show Outtakes," "Best of," "What we Read only," "No show at all," or "give me an idea." Let me know what you think.
Oh, and sorry to Pastor Will. In the cast I'm not sure that anyone noticed, but Brian decided to combine Jim and Will in to Pastor Jim. So I guess sorry Jim as well. Anyway, thank you Jim and Pastor Will for commenting.
I agree with a lot of the stuff that has been said here and not just about Aquaman.
I agree with Jody, sometimes all of us and sometimes just some of us in particular, are too tough on the industry and even more so the people doing the work we rant about. it makes us seem like even bigger tools than we really are and I think it is right to call us on it.
And I agree with Stacey, we talk over each other a lot and our manners could us some work. Also thanks a lot for saying I am your favorite you have excellent taste.
Also from now on, everyone commenting here will get combined into 1 single poster and I will call you all Amazo.
Anyone find it odd that my wife's favorite host on the show is not me? I'm jealous and hurt. Maybe I don't talk enough.
Adam,
Just to clarify. I wasn't necessarily suggesting that someone focus on Aquaman as an undersea being. I was pointing out that what makes him so hard to write as a main character is the fact that his world is so alien. Creating a world for Aquaman for us to relate to is just that, a contrivance, and we know it. It's why no one can seem to write Silver Surfer and why cosmic stories are hard to keep around. We just can't relate to aliens doing alien things to other aliens. That's why people keep trying to force Aquaman to interact with the surface. It keeps us interested (or not as the case may be) to have something we recognize and relate to. It's why Superman works even though he's an alien. He interacts with humanity so much that we feel like we understand his world. If you put him in space fighting aliens we'd lose interest beyond a storyline or two. The only way that stuff works well is if the alien races and cultures involved comment on our own society. But again it's hard to make that stuff work long term.
One could argue that what works for Superman should work for Aquaman. But that would mean making him a loner and taking away his homeland just like Superman, which isn't a bad idea, but Peter David tried that already with mixed results. That doesn't mean it couldn't work with a different execution however. Difficult to say. Aquaman's like a super tasty nut that's hard to crack. But if you can crack it, man, those are some good nuts. I love nuts. Metaphorically speaking. Wow. That's a lot of meanings there, dudes.
What the hell ever happened to Silver Surfer my friend Gary and I had that conversation yesterday, so its weird that you bring that up. Could we do a whole show on what the hell happened to that guy? Yeah, the whole cosmic thing is the reason I never really read Green Lantern. I have, however, started giving it another try following the ION books that I made it all the way through (with mixed results).
The thing is I love Star Wars books. They do relate almost completely to our know world and events that occur in it. I think for the most part those books turn out very well. The stories are alien and relate-able-ish. Maybe we need more people like Aaron Altson, Timothy Zahn, and R.A. Savatore to give comics like Aquaman a try.
Oh and Brian is a bitch.
This damn thing just told me I am posting comments too quickly and I have to slow down. Just who does it think it is to tell me what to do. I'll edit its ass.